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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:20 pm 
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Monterey Jack wrote:
-I noticed how the writers covered that every rubble-strewn cityscape was empty of innocent bystanders, clearly playing off of those -- like me -- horrified by the levels of casual collateral damage in Man Of Steel (a movie I watched again this afternoon, and am kind of warming to).

I still don't buy this argument. If you watched MoS again, you'll have noticed that Superman doesn't cause that much of the destruction in Metropolis - it's all Zod and that world builder thingey.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:35 pm 
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The point isn't that Superman himself cause the destruction, it's that he did fuckall to prevent it. Never tried to steer the fight elsewhere, never tried preventing the ship from crashing into the city, never did any of the things classic heroes do. He just got into a slugfest with little regard for what was around him.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:49 pm 
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He'd been Superman for all of one day...besides, he had done hero shit up to that point, and his dad told him NOT to. Conflict, man...

Seriously, I love that Metropolis got its ass handed to itself in MoS, just as much as I enjoyed it in Superman II, when Zod and Supes are literally throwing buildings at each other.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:27 pm 
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Shoe wrote:
The point isn't that Superman himself cause the destruction, it's that he did fuckall to prevent it. Never tried to steer the fight elsewhere, never tried preventing the ship from crashing into the city, never did any of the things classic heroes do. He just got into a slugfest with little regard for what was around him.


I keep hearing this. Zod was there specifically to kill as many humans -- i.e. ALL of them -- as possible in his quest to preserve and protect Krypton. What kind of success do you think Supes would really have in getting Zod away from populated areas? Zod struck me as pretty smart -- he wouldn't have fallen for any ploy to distract him from his primary mission. Fucking up Kal-El was definitely number two on his list.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:24 am 
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Downhuman wrote:
What kind of success do you think Supes would really have in getting Zod away from populated areas?

That doesn't really matter, though. He didn't even try. That's the failing.

The reluctant hero is a great trope. I have no problem with it. No objection to it. Not one of those people who think superheroes have to be done just so.

But Superman is not the character to hang that trope on.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:38 am 
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Shoe wrote:
Downhuman wrote:
What kind of success do you think Supes would really have in getting Zod away from populated areas?

That doesn't really matter, though. He didn't even try. That's the failing.

The reluctant hero is a great trope. I have no problem with it. No objection to it. Not one of those people who think superheroes have to be done just so.

But Superman is not the character to hang that trope on.


I will have to agree with CK on this one. Dude was just getting comfortable in the tights. Some rookie mistakes are bound to happen.

Also, and there is wiggle room for interpretation here, but there is a scene when the fight ends up in outer space and Zod is real quick to make sure that shit ends up right back in Metropolis in about 20 seconds flat.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:48 am 
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Downhuman wrote:
Also, and there is wiggle room for interpretation here, but there is a scene when the fight ends up in outer space and Zod is real quick to make sure that shit ends up right back in Metropolis in about 20 seconds flat.

Precisely. At no point during the earlier Smallville battle, or the final battle between the two, does Superman ever force the fight into buildings and people. In fact, when Faora fucks up IHOP, and Superman sees his fat buddy in a potentially deadly position, he is completely distracted by that very situation.

It's Zod and co. that intentionally cause mayhem (exactly as they did in Superman II), because they know it's Supe's weakness. Besides, the world builder had already destroyed ALL of downtown Metropolis by the time that final fight takes place. Any buildings still standing would have come falling down sooner than later, with or without additional Kryptonian intervention.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:41 am 
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Nah, I don't buy the "it was his first day on the job" argument. I get where you're coming from, I respect that point of view, but it doesn't work for me. I feel like an essential trait of this character is that he's just super noble from the word go. Snyder did a poor job (in both movies) of getting that across.

And staging things so he CAN'T show that selflessness and nobility is just poor writing.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:44 am 
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Shoe wrote:
I feel like an essential trait of this character is that he's just super noble from the word go.


That's fine but I think it's obvious that Snyder was never going to give us that version of him. His vision of Supes was always going to be way more conflicted. And he set it up that way, too. He's a given us a darker vision of Krypton that showed a society where eugenics had been taken to the extreme with a birth-father who was instrumental in that before he rebelled. And his earthbound father tells him to let people die before exposing himself. That's bound to make someone's moral compass a little murkier. And what rulebook says that he can't become that super noble character later on?

So, with that in mind you either except Snyder's vision or you don't. He's done a great job of developing the character as he's presented it. It may not match up with your expectations of it, but you can't say he's done a poor job of characterization. Also of note, this surely can't be the first time Supes has been characterized this way.

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Last edited by Downhuman on Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:13 am 
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Downhuman wrote:
He's done a great job of developing the character as he's presented it. It may not match up with your expectations of it, but you can't say he's done a poor job of characterization.

I certainly can. The character had little to no development over the course of two lengthy movies. He moped, brooded, then had his Jesus moment. Snyder may have wanted to present a complex struggle to become a hero, but he failed at doing so. The internal conflict he tried to set up was poorly presented in every way because there wasn't much actual conflict there. It was more like, "This shit again?" whenever Superman had to do something that didn't involve saving Lois.

He never even evolved into that noble character you mention in the end. Even his Jesus moment came across as reluctant rather than stemming from newly awakened heroism.

Snyder had some nice ideas on what he wanted to do with these two movies, thematically there were some great concepts there worth exploring, but in my view his execution didn't even remotely live up to those lofty ideas.

Like in BvS, for instance, the whole theme of having this godlike being in the world and what they meant for the world is GREAT material to explore, but he didn't really explore it. A great visual or two of Superman hovering above a scene or people in a worshipful pose grasping for him, Lex spouting some nonsense, and that was about it.

And Superman's own views on all this were murky at best. How did he feel about his place it the world? Who the hell know? Hard to tell, because he was poorly written.

Neither film is a disaster -- some critics really overstate their case when slamming them -- but neither is particularly good, either. They're filled with great visuals, and good ideas that never quite live up to their potential.

The Krypton sequences were fan-farking-tastic, though.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:28 am 
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I should mention that I haven't actually seen B vs. S yet so I not privy to any character development that happened in that movie. But MoS I've seen multiple times and I feel more and more like Snyder and Nolan did their job setting up the character there. We'll just have to disagree on this.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:31 am 
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Fair enough to me.

Get out and see BvS. If you liked Man of Steel, I think you'll enjoy it. It carries forward with many of the same themes, but expands the world in a big way.

And if you have any interest at all in Batman, Affleck's take will probably impress you. He's great.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:22 pm 
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Shoe wrote:
And if you have any interest at all in Batman, Affleck's take will probably impress you. He's great.


This is what I've been hearing. As one reviewer put it, somewhere inside B vs. S is the most insane Batman movie ever made. Almost as if Snyder really wanted to make a superior Batman movie to begin with. And I knew Affleck would be just fine. The only other time he put on tights was for Daredevil. And while there were a great many things wrong with Daredevil, Affleck wasn't one of them. On top of that, he's a much better actor now.

Going back to something you said,

Shoe wrote:
The internal conflict he tried to set up was poorly presented in every way because there wasn't much actual conflict there. It was more like, "This shit again?" whenever Superman had to do something that didn't involve saving Lois.


It would make sense that he was fixated on Lois -- and not just romantically, either. She was the person who found him when he was at his most conflicted. She was the catalyst for him finally coming to terms with the two biggest internal conflicts he had going on. One being whether or not he could face the fear and rejection he would face upon revealing himself to the world. And the other was him facing the implications of being imbued with godlike power and how that power could be easily misused. A conflict personified almost immediately with the arrival of Zod. So, I think that shows there was plenty of actual conflict going on. Now there is an argument to made as to how well he handled both of those conflicts but I think it definitely shows he had a lot to think about.

Again, I don't know how the newer movie expanded on that.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:52 pm 
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Actually Downhuman, Ben Affleck played George Reeves playing Superman once.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:42 pm 
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brian wrote:
Actually Downhuman, Ben Affleck played George Reeves playing Superman once.


I knew about Hollywoodland but didn't think it was really relevant. Although he did look the part as a retro Superman. Incidentally that was the first movie where I really saw a noticeable improvement in his acting.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:49 pm 
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When Affleck was a punchline, I couldn't leave the house without somebody telling me I looked just like Ben Affleck.

Now Affleck's respectable. And nobody makes the comparison anymore.

White people problems? Probably. I doubt many black people get told they look like Ben Affleck.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:49 pm 
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Did you get fat?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:49 pm 
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Shoe wrote:
Did you get fat?

Likes this.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:21 pm 
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Shoe wrote:
Did you get fat?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:29 pm 
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In case it's unclear, that look on my face translates roughly as "Fuck you, Shoe, you pissant little motherfucker. I'm in my prime."


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:34 pm 
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Huh.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:53 pm 
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Wow, this took a fucking turn.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 6:18 am 
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...a turn that I didn't really remember clearly, given that I was on my fifth glass of whiskey when I typed that. A grain of salt is recommended.

But no, I didn't get fat.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:11 am 
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Oh Martha.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:14 am 
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brian wrote:
Oh Martha.

I laughed at this exchange...other than Lex' character/motivation, this was the stupidest thing in the movie.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:21 am 
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It was so clumsy, too. Why the hell does he start calling his mother by her first name?

Answer: Because the writers needed him to.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:32 am 
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Shoe wrote:
It was so clumsy, too. Why the hell does he start calling his mother by her first name?

Answer: Because the writers needed him to.

writer - David Goyer...he's always guilty of shit like this. There was a better way to handle this (spoiler alert), in a earlier scene when Lex confronted Lois on the rooftop - it's HERE where all that shit should have gone down. Superman is confronted with only being able to save one person he loves, and Batman realizing Kal-El isn't a god after all. It mirrors scenes in both the first Superman film, and that shitty Dark Knight film. Super simple, and no stupid "Martha."

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:54 am 
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Ugh, the rooftop. Hell, Lex's whole damn plan.
Spoiler: show
He orchestrates this whole thing by inexplicably knowing that Batman was going to try and take down Superman that same night, in a very public way. How does he know this? WHO CARES!?

He summons Superman by pushing Lois off a roof. How the hell does that work?

The Kryptonite, he either knows Batman will get his hands on it in order to kill Superman, in which case he's a goddamn fortune teller, or Batman legit stole it, in which case he has to change all his plans at the last minute. In either case, it doesn't jive with the story. If it's the former, why go to all the trouble to secretly get his hands on it, protect it, etc. instead of just getting it to Batman? The idea that he got it just to trick Batman into stealing it is stupid and requires so many assumptions on his part no brilliant mastermind would ever consider such stupidity. If it's the latter, why the hell was he secretly taunting Batman into hating Superman for the last two years?


His whole scheme was nonsense.

The idea at the core is good. Easy to see this aged Batman thinking this alien guy is a potential danger that needs to be eliminated, and Lex thinking the same. But damn, it's all clumsy as shit.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:49 am 
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Shoe wrote:
Downhuman wrote:
What kind of success do you think Supes would really have in getting Zod away from populated areas?

That doesn't really matter, though. He didn't even try. That's the failing.

That is fairly straw man.

If Superman knew it wouldn't work, the trying would've done more harm than good.

Like asking firemen if they first tried to pee on the fire when they got there.

"The whole building is on fire, dude - a few streams of pee won't help."

"Yes, but did you even try? What kind of firemen are you? Look at the water you used instead of trying urine - which would have been more eco-friendly."


Yeah, I don't buy the whole try thing.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:15 am 
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Stop smoking weed.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:28 am 
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I'm pretty sure if Superman peed on Metropolis, it would get a few people upset.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:50 am 
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Yet others would appreciate the literary allusion.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:45 pm 
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Somewhere, in there, is a really good film.

In most films they follow one character(s) through a central story, and when there are extra characters and storylines they come in short bites, in this one, everything came in short bites. Just little blips and pieces of incomplete storylines mashing together, almost afraid to delve to deeply into anyone of them. Batman being most central, but his character is so unbalanced, and we know he is playing up the playboy angle as Bruce Wayne to throw off suspicion, but here is just seems off.

The film is trying to be gritty and more centered on the conflict of 'man' and the decisions they make within the nature of society, but nothing is allowed to breath here, to really sit and allow those thoughts to develop in the viewer.

With the Lex character, I think Snyder made the biggest mistake. He wanted to keep the end game a secret to have a big surprise at the end, but within this story with so much else going on, it doesn't work, and I think about a Hitchcock quote, which I'll mess up because I don't feel like looking it up, but is basically, "Anyone can set a bomb off and get a quick jump, an easy scare, but, if you show the audience the bomb, placed underneath a table, with 2 characters that you care about talking over it, that builds tension, ads a whole new dimension to the scene" If you knew Lex's end game much sooner, and had the conflict between Batman and Superman building as you know they are both heading for 'Doom', that would have flowed and worked much better, I think. Give the audience one less thing to figure out between the onslaught of storylines and themes.

Having said that... the fight sequences were mostly awesome, some of the best yet in a superhero film, and the capitol scene, brilliant, loved every frame.

I'm with the folks that are awaiting a re-cut/extended edition. Greatness is in there, but hasn't been brought out yet.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:56 am 
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Nitpicky spoilery shit...
Spoiler: show
  • At the end of the Superman Batman fight, Superman suddenly trusts Batman completely to go save his mother, the thing that drove him to go against his own nature, that was just bullshit writing for what was an awesome Batman action sequence, but a complete cheat on any type of logic or reasoning.
  • The Three's Company non-communication before the Batman Superman fight, where Clark just wants to tell Batman that they are being manipulated by Lex Jr, but can't seem to get the words out. This always bothers me and is always lazy. Superman could just hold him and tell him, but that would end the fight, and we need the fight, so...
  • Lex apparently hated Superman because of the threat he posses, or that he is jealous of his power, or whatever, it's not always clear, but he does want him dead, and then goes on to create a creature more powerful than Superman that he could not hope to control. Makes perfect sense...

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:13 am 
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Agree on all counts, and then some. This movie is a mess. Very pretty at times, but a mess.

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