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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 1:59 pm 
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Not sure if you fellows were aware, but this film came out last weekend. Just thought you dudes should know, ya know, Guys ...


Image

And SPOILER ALERT Spider-Man and Black Panther are both in it too, and Ant Man. Which is kinda cool because you would think they would need to do some team balancing, but the team that gets both the new guys already has Vision, who is like Superman, basically. It's got a weird plot about some guy manipulating them, but the fights are kinda cool, like a big fighting game, like Injustice: Gods Among Us, but for Marvel, ya know?

:hole1: :hole1: :hole1: :nohole: :nohole:



:whiz: :cheers: :kneel: :wink:

P.S. Captain America makes out with his girlfriend's niece.

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 5:54 am 
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Turned it off after 10 minutes. Gobbledigook.

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 6:14 am 
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Probably going to see it with my daughter tomorrow night. I wanted to see it earlier but was traveling. Really looking forward to it.

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 10:16 am 
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caryc wrote:
...Really looking forward to it.
To give a 'real' review... it was OK. The setup for the internal Avenger conflict wasn't very well done, and could have been resolved easily. It also left a lot of situations hanging that should have been resolved within this story. But, there were many fun superhero scenes and interactions. I do like the new Spider-Man and look forward to his film. An actual teenager playing a teenager (at least when they filmed this one), it is refreshing. They stayed very true to the character from the original comic (changing some events and supporting characters), and had his fighting personality flow naturally from that.

:hole1: :hole1: :half: :nohole: :nohole:

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 12:57 pm 
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I've generally liked all the Marvel movies so I know going in that I'll like it. I read the comic event when it happened but I understand that this is borrowing the concept but not the plot so to speak. Still, I'm looking forward to seeing Black Panther in action as he's an old favorite. Kind of bummed he's on the side of registration but it's to be expected.

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 2:42 pm 
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It's MUCH different than the comic, most pointedly in that they actually got the "no one is wrong" aspect is right, unlike in the comic where Tony and crew are fascist assholes. Also in that you actually feel the emotional stakes here. It seems like it's going to be a big story, what with all the characters and the giant fight everyone is talking about, but it's actually rather small and intimate and about the characters more than the spectacle. The movie is a total bummer, but not in a "grim and gritty" kind of way. It's a bummer because you see characters you love put through the emotional wringer.

If you've been invested in the Marvel movies, you'll enjoy it. If they are just casual entertainment to you, you'll like the action but will be bored by the rest.

Also:

Quote:
Kind of bummed he's on the side of registration


It's not quite this straightforward is all I'm saying.

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 2:56 pm 
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Shoe wrote:
It's MUCH different than the comic, most pointedly in that they actually got the "no one is wrong" aspect is right, unlike in the comic where Tony and crew are fascist assholes. Also in that you actually feel the emotional stakes here.
See, I didn't feel it because the situation pulling them apart could have been so easily resolved with a little talk.
Spoiler: show
Tony would have believed Capt, he knows he doesn't lie. The Boy Scout comments, and Tony also knew very well that Bucky was being controlled and did not do any of it on his own free will, even made a quip calling him Manchurian Candidate. I just couldn't buy into it, far to contrived.


Shoe wrote:
It's not quite this straightforward is all I'm saying.
Very true. Cary, I think you will like Black Panther here very much. He also has one of the best lines in the film...
Spoiler: show
The living are not done with you yet.

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 3:29 pm 
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Ericubus wrote:
Shoe wrote:
It's MUCH different than the comic, most pointedly in that they actually got the "no one is wrong" aspect is right, unlike in the comic where Tony and crew are fascist assholes. Also in that you actually feel the emotional stakes here.
See, I didn't feel it because the situation pulling them apart could have been so easily resolved with a little talk.
Spoiler: show
Tony would have believed Capt, he knows he doesn't lie. The Boy Scout comments, and Tony also knew very well that Bucky was being controlled and did not do any of it on his own free will, even made a quip calling him Manchurian Candidate. I just couldn't buy into it, far to contrived.

Spoiler: show
Oh, Tony knew how and why it went down. It wasn't a matter of Cap convincing him, it was just too great a sledgehammer for Tony in that moment. There was no talking him down. It wasn't just what Winter Soldier (not Bucky) did, it was that Cap may have known about it. His ally protected some dude who killed his parents, and he just saw it on video. Mind controlled or not, that's a heavy blow to take. Too much hurt all at once. I feel like his reaction was totally understandable.

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 6:43 pm 
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Shoe wrote:
Spoiler: show
Oh, Tony knew how and why it went down. It wasn't a matter of Cap convincing him, it was just too great a sledgehammer for Tony in that moment. There was no talking him down. It wasn't just what Winter Soldier (not Bucky) did, it was that Cap may have known about it. His ally protected some dude who killed his parents, and he just saw it on video. Mind controlled or not, that's a heavy blow to take. Too much hurt all at once. I feel like his reaction was totally understandable.


In addition...

Spoiler: show
...it's noteworthy that Tony says "He killed my MOM!", and doesn't mention his father at all. Kind of says it all re: his relationship with the Old Man.

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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 8:44 am 
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Shoe wrote:
Ericubus wrote:
Shoe wrote:
It's MUCH different than the comic, most pointedly in that they actually got the "no one is wrong" aspect is right, unlike in the comic where Tony and crew are fascist assholes. Also in that you actually feel the emotional stakes here.
See, I didn't feel it because the situation pulling them apart could have been so easily resolved with a little talk.
Spoiler: show
Tony would have believed Capt, he knows he doesn't lie. The Boy Scout comments, and Tony also knew very well that Bucky was being controlled and did not do any of it on his own free will, even made a quip calling him Manchurian Candidate. I just couldn't buy into it, far to contrived.

Spoiler: show
Oh, Tony knew how and why it went down. It wasn't a matter of Cap convincing him, it was just too great a sledgehammer for Tony in that moment. There was no talking him down. It wasn't just what Winter Soldier (not Bucky) did, it was that Cap may have known about it. His ally protected some dude who killed his parents, and he just saw it on video. Mind controlled or not, that's a heavy blow to take. Too much hurt all at once. I feel like his reaction was totally understandable.
In that moment, yes, I can kinda go along with it, it is a stretch, but OK he's emotional, but I was talking about well before that, when they are talking about ...
Spoiler: show
...Bucky being the terrorist and signing the papers. Capt very soon after that knew it was some other plot, well before the reveal of December 19th video, before the airport fight, Capt was on to something bigger and a simple sit down or phone call with Tony and Rogers could have avoided the whole fight of heroes.
Now, we know, of course, that there 'has to be' a fight of heroes, it was the whole damn point of the film, but the story they used, I think, was not well done and felt like it was tacked together for the sake of seeing a big hero vs hero battle and didn't really have the heft behind it.

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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 10:30 am 
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Ericubus wrote:
In that moment, yes, I can kinda go along with it, it is a stretch, but OK he's emotional, but I was talking about well before that, when they are talking about ...
Spoiler: show
...Bucky being the terrorist and signing the papers. Capt very soon after that knew it was some other plot, well before the reveal of December 19th video, before the airport fight, Capt was on to something bigger and a simple sit down or phone call with Tony and Rogers could have avoided the whole fight of heroes.
Now, we know, of course, that there 'has to be' a fight of heroes, it was the whole damn point of the film, but the story they used, I think, was not well done and felt like it was tacked together for the sake of seeing a big hero vs hero battle and didn't really have the heft behind it.

I see what you mean and I can't tell you you're wrong for feeling that way. Valid impression.

For me, I think that stuff played out fine. Saw it again last night, and the stuff you're talking about
Spoiler: show
Cap only realized there was a plot afoot literal moments before Zemo blew the juice at the base and freed Winter Soldier, then they were instantly on the run from authorities. Perhaps he could have reached out to Tony during that 24-hour stretch, but it's easy to understand why he may have been hesitant to. He had already been taken into custody once at gunpoint, after all.

Once at the airport, he does try to explain the plot to Tony to get him on board, but by that time Tony is under huge pressure from Ross to bring Cap in. In his mind, he's saving the Avengers. He just wants to get the mess cleaned up, THEN maybe worry about this other issue.

Cap, meanwhile, feels pressed for time. He wants to get to Zemo NOW and without dealing with all the red tape going in will involve, so he and his crew make a break for it. Boom, fight.


I get where you're coming from, though. The "if they'd worked a little harder at it they could have resolved things before the conflict" argument is valid. I don't think that issue is NEARLY as egregious as that other hero vs. hero movie, though. In this one, it felt very natural to me. You wanted to slap some sense into both Tony and Cap, but you -- or I, at least -- understood how and why they followed the roads they did.

But if it didn't work for you, I get that. :thumbs:

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 5:12 am 
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My daughter and I both liked it a lot. I agree that it could probably have been resolved prior to the showdown but again, where's the fun in that? I'd have to agree with Ericubus' rating. Like Ultron, this kind of left me feeling nothing at the end. Unlike Ant-Man or Winter Soldier where I walked out feeling like I'd just had a blast. This was very good, don't get me wrong, but I wasn't as wowed as others seem to have been.

I do love Black Panther though and I really like seeing Vision evolve. I'm also glad that they left things the way they did. That's still in keeping with the comic scenario.

Spoiler: show
Where Cap and a handful of others fight as unregistered heroes.


They better hurry up and get to Infinity War though. Some of these people are looking a little old in their close ups. Don Cheadle toward the end looked every bit of his age and granted, that was a moment when he was supposed to look defeated but still.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 5:39 pm 
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I sort of half watched this because with the internet, all things are possible.

Random thoughts:

Was there a point at all to the Kyrgyzstan/marvelopolis guy that
Spoiler: show
tried killing himself?
He kept showing up through the movie but it struck me as the sort of thing that should have been left on the editing room floor.

Spoiler: show
I enjoyed Spider-Man, but it was sort of just pooped into the middle of the film. Would have been neat to have some easter eggs earlier in the film to build up to Stark meeting with him. Maybe this happened and I just missed it.


Ant Man - the only Marvel(TM) film I haven't seen to date but Paul Rudd's small (heh, small!) part in this leaves me wanting to see more.

Also lots of parallels between this and Batman V Superman. In addition to treading similar territory, both
Spoiler: show
have their second scene with a Superhero fuckup in Africa
and
Spoiler: show
boom in the court house/hearing room
. Additionally fun that both Batman and Iron Man love their moms. Like, moms are what brought together the final act in both films. Weird. Were screen writers sharing notes or something?

In sum, one really good fight scene, some faux drama, and a lot of zoning out. 2.75/5. This is probably better than the Avengers films, for what it's worth.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 7:17 am 
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I can't really argue your point about the marvelopolis guy because:

Spoiler: show
he's the least menacing villain in the history of these films. I'm not even sure they needed him to further the plot. That was something that did bug me because in a lot of ways, that whole trip to Siberia seemed shoehorned into the film.


However, I can highly recommend Ant-Man. I saw it in the theater and liked it but on second viewing it jumped up into my top three. It's a very fun film and while the origin story formula thing is still there, it feels different from the other films. It's basically a caper movie with weird science.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:35 am 
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SPOILERS

.
.
.
.
.

You guys are so off on Zemo I don't even know where to start, mostly because I can't wrap my head around what you're saying.

In just a few short scenes he managed to become one of Marvel's most interesting villains (though in all fairness Marvel hasn't really hit it out of the park on the villain front). The plot can't move forward as it did without him. He's essential to bringing Panther into the fray, putting Bucky on the run, revealing the full truth about Tony's parents, getting Cap to become adversarial with Tony, making Cap a fugitive, and getting Tony to try and kill Bucky.

He destroyed the Avengers. That wasn't going to happen without his machinations. Without him, Cap just refuses to sign the Accords and walks away. Bucky remains a fugitive flying way under the radar. panther is not involved with the Avengers. Etc. Siberia was merely the culmination of everything he had been doing.

Take him out and almost everything that happens after Witch's accident never takes place. They have a debate about the Accords, and that's it. It's all set in motion due to him.

I get not liking him as a character. Taste is taste. Can't really excise him from the story without rewriting it from top to bottom, though, and in that case the only way you get the "civil war" is by writing all the characters out-of-character, which is what happened in the comic (which was a good idea badly done).

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:44 am 
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Zemo had the personality of a dust bunny. Dude didn't even have a maniacal laugh, WTF?!?

In the film, he started off interesting, but then deadpanned his way through 1.5 hours.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 9:10 am 
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I thought he was interesting because he wasn't evil, he was just hurt. He was just a guy. A guy with great skills, yeah -- he's revealed to have lead an elite secret intelligence squad -- but ultimately he's just a quiet, patient guy seeking vengeance. No scenery chewing, no sights set on conquering the world. He just wanted to cause emotional pain to people who caused him emotional pain.

It's one of the strengths of the movie, I think. For all the zillion characters in it and the super mega epic fight in the middle, the movie is oddly small and personal. The stakes have nothing to do with saving the world. They are intimate and personal.

He'll be back, I think, and he may be fantastic in his return thanks to what amounts to an origin story for him.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 9:43 am 
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Ericubus wrote:

In the film, he started off interesting, but then deadpanned his way through 1.5 hours.


This.

You're right in that he's a catalyst for things to go down the way they did, but he's a boring catalyst. I get what you're saying in that he plays a part in the way the story is written, but honestly any number of alternative and more menacing villains could have set all of those things in motion.

But if the writers are completely sold on Zemo, that's fine. I don't need him to be a cackling, maniacal villain. I'd just like him to show some sort of emotion as this plays out because dude literally had one expression the entire film.

Basically, if you reverse the roles he's playing the Denzel Washington part in a revenge action flick. Emote some goddamn it. Denzel would!

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 10:52 am 
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I think more menace would have detracted and distracted from where the focus should be: on the personal conflict. With this story, we shouldn't be worried about the bad guy, we should be worried about the growing divide between these characters we like. We should be worried about whether or not Tony is going to find out about what Bucky did. If the bad guy is more menacing, that pulls focus from the heart and soul of the story.

Calm, pained, and a touch of mystery was, IMO, the right choice here.

Your milage, of course, may vary.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 11:13 am 
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I was kidding about the maniacal laugh, but he never really showed the level of hurt or even hatred for these people it had to take to be motivated to do what he did. I have no issue with him being cold and calculating while carrying out his plan, someone with that level of training and experience probably would be, but show some of the level of depth and pain he had to feel to get there. A 1,000 yard stare, something. He was just . . . there. It was like, "Cut to plot device . . . 3 .2 .1 . . . and now back to the interesting people."

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 2:25 pm 
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Shoe wrote:
pained


That's what was missing in my opinion. He had the calm down in spades. Yet even when they first showed him listening to his wife's message, he was calm. I didn't see hurt, or even him steeling his resolve to push his plan to completion. He was just "there" with a phone to his ear.

I'm not arguing about what the script/story needed. I agree that Zemo's character should work, but I'm disappointed in the portrayal.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 5:00 pm 
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Shoe wrote:
I get not liking him as a character. Taste is taste. Can't really excise him from the story without rewriting it from top to bottom, though, and in that case the only way you get the "civil war" is by writing all the characters out-of-character, which is what happened in the comic (which was a good idea badly done).


Like I said, I was half-watching the film. Anytime that guy was on screen, back to the internet because it seemed like fuck-all happened. He was a villain? Weird.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 7:52 pm 
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Shoe wrote:
I thought he was interesting because he wasn't evil, he was just hurt. He was just a guy. A guy with great skills, yeah -- he's revealed to have lead an elite secret intelligence squad -- but ultimately he's just a quiet, patient guy seeking vengeance. No scenery chewing, no sights set on conquering the world. He just wanted to cause emotional pain to people who caused him emotional pain.


I enjoyed this aspect of the film too, especially the misdirection of making it seem like he's all gung-ho about re-activating the iced Winter Soldiers, only to have that be a giant red herring. So many of these Marvel movies end with, as one critic described it, "Big Things crashing into other Big Things", so I like the fact that the event that crippled and broke the Avengers into two squabbling factions wasn't the usual plot for world domination or mass extinction, just one guy with a grudge. He's not even doing it for some supervillain agenda, he just wants to spread around the pain they caused him. And this works because we've known these characters for the better part of a decade at this point, unlike Batman V Superman, where Bats and Supes become mortal enemies and then bros within the course of a single movie, with ridiculous motivations fueling both turns (the whole "Our Moms have the same name!" bullshit). Seeing Steve and Tony develop as characters and friends over the course of multiple movies made it truly effective and painful to see them forced to come to blows over their conflicting personalities. Shit just got real.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 7:53 pm 
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caryc wrote:
But if the writers are completely sold on Zemo, that's fine. I don't need him to be a cackling, maniacal villain. I'd just like him to show some sort of emotion as this plays out because dude literally had one expression the entire film.


I'll take that over Jesse Eisenberg's embarrassing mugging in Batman V Superman.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 4:33 pm 
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caryc wrote:

However, I can highly recommend Ant-Man. I saw it in the theater and liked it but on second viewing it jumped up into my top three. It's a very fun film and while the origin story formula thing is still there, it feels different from the other films. It's basically a caper movie with weird science.


Watched it last night. It's a fun film. Probably the top of my list out of all of these Marvel films.


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