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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:23 pm 
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No shit. Everything with the knife and the family, as well as the whole phone conversation near the end was phenomenal. I'm starting to think that...
Spoiler: show
the ricin is meant to save Jesse from his forced servitude, and the assault rifle is for the neo-nazis


though I could be completely wrong on both accounts.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:10 pm 
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Show made me teary eyed. Hard to watch. Jesus.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:00 pm 
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Spoiler: show
So Walt Jr, who has hated his mom forever, turns on his dad in the blink of an eye and calls 911 after Skyler tried stabbing him.

The Nazis kill Hank after Walt begging them not to, they then steal 69 million dollars of Walts money, oh but, Todd really likes Walt, so he can live? Sure. Obviously no hard feelings there.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:11 pm 
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Al,
Spoiler: show
I think some of that stemmed from they knew that they needed someone to cook for them. I'm sure Todd was thinking that and knew that Walt was going to do it since they killed Hank. Besides, it looks like they really messed up Jesse. Maybe the quick end would have been the better way.


and

Spoiler: show
I thought it was odd that they killed Gomie with little fanfare. Why not have that in the last episode? Leave us wondering if Hank survived or not and give Gomie his own episode to go out. I did like Hank being a badass to the end "You're the smartest guy I know, but they decided what they were going to do 10 minutes ago."

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:11 pm 
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Al,
Spoiler: show
I think some of that stemmed from they knew that they needed someone to cook for them. I'm sure Todd was thinking that and knew that Walt was going to do it since they killed Hank. Besides, it looks like they really messed up Jesse. Maybe the quick end would have been the better way.


and

Spoiler: show
I thought it was odd that they killed Gomie with little fanfare. Why not have that in the last episode? Leave us wondering if Hank survived or not and give Gomie his own episode to go out. I did like Hank being a badass to the end "You're the smartest guy I know, but they decided what they were going to do 10 minutes ago."

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:37 pm 
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Kimfair wrote:
No shit. Everything with the knife and the family, as well as the whole phone conversation near the end was phenomenal. I'm starting to think that...
Spoiler: show
the ricin is meant to save Jesse from his forced servitude, and the assault rifle is for the neo-nazis


though I could be completely wrong on both accounts.

I think Walt intends to use the ricin on himself. It's for him. His final sacrifice (or his final escape plan).

Of course, predicting this show has proven near impossible, even with just a few episodes left, so naturally it will be something no one at all expects.

Max W wrote:
Spoiler: show
I thought it was odd that they killed Gomie with little fanfare. Why not have that in the last episode? Leave us wondering if Hank survived or not and give Gomie his own episode to go out. I did like Hank being a badass to the end "You're the smartest guy I know, but they decided what they were going to do 10 minutes ago."

I thought that was a good choice. Presenting it so matter of fact gave it an air of grimness a more dramatic death wouldn't have had. The drama would have been out of place.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:41 pm 
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Sorry, not spoiler tagging, so WATCH FOR SPOILERS
Al Pacino wrote:
Spoiler: show
So Walt Jr, who has hated his mom forever, turns on his dad in the blink of an eye and calls 911 after Skyler tried stabbing him.

He's still just a teenager. He never really hated his mom, he was just lashing out the way teenage boys do because he couldn't understand why his family was falling apart.

Then he found out his dad probably killed the uncle he loved and respected -- Walt Jr. liked Hank a lot and Hank looked out for him -- and Walt attacked Skylar, not the other way around, which only reinforced the idea that his dad was a bad guy. Skyler only slashed with the knife when Walt went for it, then Walt attacked. He escalated that situation.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:14 pm 
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Max W wrote:
Spoiler: show
I did like Hank being a badass to the end "You're the smartest guy I know, but they decided what they were going to do 10 minutes ago."

My favorite part of last night's episode, which was my favorite of the year. Just so much fantastic stuff going on, but that last line of Hank's was his final "Fuck you" to Walt. Totally appropriate.

I really don't care to speculate how it's going to end. I think it's more fun to just watch it unfold and enjoy it because the people behind it have been doing such a good job of it that I trust the ending will be satisfying.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:29 pm 
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Walt showed no intention of harm to the family at that moment. Skyler grabbed the knife on him, there was no need for a knife. He found out his dad might have killed Hank, he doesn't know, nobody will let Walt speak. I'd like to think the first thing somebody would ask was "What the fuck actually happened?". Skyler wouldn't speak a word of anything around the son but now she wants to discuss whether Walt killed Hank in front of him and when Walt says no she still says he killed Hank. I get it, it escalated quickly, but I'm really surprised how quickly they turned on him without letting him get a word in. You could say Walt is always a liar (he usually is), but he didn't lie about Hank being dead so why don't they see what happened and why he wants to to get out of the house. There could be people coming to kill them for all she knows but she won't let him explain whats going on. I'd also say escalating the situation is going for a knife when there is no need for one, which she did. It's Walt's home, he doesn't have to leave when he's threatened with a knife. I'd like to think Walt Jr. would let his dad give an explanation before calling and lying to the police (Walt didn't attack anybody with a knife). Still, the Nazis letting him live was the worst part of the episode, makes no sense and is bad writing. You don't steal 69 million dollars from a murdering drug kingpin who hired you to kill somebody and you didn't even kill the person you were hired to kill, you kill his brother in law instead. But no hard feelings there I guess, this is surely over after the shaking of hands. :roll:

Oh yea, and let's not even discuss the fact that Walt wouldn't know if the van he was using to move 80 million dollars had a GPS tracker in it. Good lord, I get things needed to happen, but it's poor writing and out of character. Walter has done some dumb things, but nobody is going to move 80 million dollars in a rental van and not know if your being tracked. Walt fucking checks his own car every day before he drives around, he would know if the van had GPS tracking.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:57 pm 
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As far as they were aware, he had just killed their closest family in cold blood. Up to that point, he had lied to Skylar repeatedly, again and again, about increasingly serious, dark things, up to and including murder. The very idea that at that moment she might be inclined to sit back and say, "Sure, Walt, let's see what you have to say" is absolute lunacy.

I mean, really, there was no need for a knife? This murderer who has threatened you into covering for him just killed your brother-in-law (as far as you know) and is not trying to take you god knows where.

If any moment calls for a knife, that one does.

As for the Nazis, Heisenberg is their golden ticket. If they can't get Jesse to cook, they need him. Killing him prematurely would be rash and they know it. That's the only reason they agreed to kill Jesse in the first place. To get Walt to cook for them. They managed to snatch Jesse to force him to work, but Walt was their backup plan. They just needed to know he wasn't going to turn on them.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:02 pm 
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Walt and the GPS? Jeez, he's made bigger blunders throughout the course of the show. He has repeatedly screwed up big because he's always way out of his element. It wouldn't be the first major thing he overlooked, and in the heat of the moment, with Hank on his and Jesse ready either to turn or go after his family, he wasn't exactly thinking rationally. He - as he's done many times before - got caught up in the moment, letting emotion guide him rather than pausing to think things through. This is exactly in keeping with what he's been all along.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:25 pm 
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You make some valid points Shoe, but if you had 10 men with assault weapons and had just murdered my brother in law (who I care about enough that I'd give you 80 million dollars for) and you took 69 million dollars of my money and you asked me to shake your hand and forget what happened, I'd do it. Hell, that's sort of what Gus did when they killed his partner. He played nice and then got revenge on every single person, it took a long time, but he did it, and that's what I'd do too. They should of just kidnapped both Walt and Jesse and held them hostage and threatened both their families/loved ones if they wanted them to cook meth and have no loose ends.

This is still one of the best shows ever, I just thought some of the things the past few episodes felt rushed/out of character but as you said, these characters have all done very stupid things in the past so who knows.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:01 am 
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It's a fair enough view. I don't agree, but I can't tell you you're wrong. If it didn't feel right to you, it didn't feel right to you.

I think the family stuff was all spot-on, given Walt's history to that point. The Nazis? Yeah, you can make the case that the smarter move would have been to snuff Walt on the spot. The reason why they saw no need to, however, came an episode or two earlier, in my opinion:

When Walt went to them asking that they kill Jesse.

Watch that scene and you'll see what respect they had for him dissolve away before your eyes. Whatever fear and awe they had disappeared when they realized, right then and there, that Walt wasn't a mastermind criminal who could accomplish almost anything, he was just a small, weak, insecure little man playing way out of his element. You can see it in their eyes in these scene and in their reaction when they realize he can't kill Jesse himself. They realize they've got him.

At that moment, he was no longer a threat to them (or so they figure).

That's why they pushed him into agreeing to cook for them, why they disregarded his call to back off when he found Jesse, why they ignored his pleas to spare Hank, and why they felt safe letting him go. Because they suddenly saw him as nothing more than a schmuck playing pretend. They could buy his silence with the money and they still had him as a tool for cooking if Jesse didn't work out.

It will all backfire on them, of course, but I think they don't expect that because they have absolutely no respect for or fear of Walt anymore.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:03 am 
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Attachment:
1.jpg
1.jpg [ 129.1 KiB | Viewed 5129 times ]

5-seaons-worth-of-reality-check-face

:)



Dunno. I smiled through a lot of this. A bit silly on all fronts.

But the silliest was me, watching this, like...

-3 minutes to go? Okay.
-Wait, just 1 minute to go. What's the deal with Jesse's fate?
-Huh? This is en.din.g "I've still got things left to do..." okay...
-What? WHAT? Who is that picking him up?! Fade to black?!?!?!!! WAIT! WHAT?!! Spin-off to follow?!?? What's going on?!?!!

-*goes online to find out this wasn't the final episode, as he had thought*

-*feels a bit silly*

-*but relieved.*

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:21 am 
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The interesting thing is, if we didn't have the flash forwards the show COULD have ended right there. Walt is gone, off to make a new life under a new name, and Jesse is in captivity, forced to cook meth for Nazis. Hank is dead. The White family is split up. In essence, all loose ends are tied up and all fates are sealed.

But since we have that flash forward, we know there is a little more to go.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:11 am 
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Shoe wrote:
The interesting thing is, if we didn't have the flash forwards the show COULD have ended right there. Walt is gone, off to make a new life under a new name, and Jesse is in captivity, forced to cook meth for Nazis. Hank is dead. The White family is split up. In essence, all loose ends are tied up and all fates are sealed.

But since we have that flash forward, we know there is a little more to go.


We all actually really liked that ending. As you said, if it wasn't for the flash forwards, that ending really could have worked. I'm sure the ending they have planned is better, but I enjoyed it.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:23 pm 
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Perhaps it's a false flash forward, a la the false flash back in Hitchcock's Stage Fright.

Note that I don't think this at all, just that I'm sure something shocking is coming before the end.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:04 pm 
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Aye, this show will be missed. Probably the only show I've watched beginning to end that's been consistently great.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:22 am 
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We caught up Saturday night, and watched episode 15 live.

Walt risked an awful lot going in to get that ricin, he had to be desperate to get it for some grand reason. I can see Shoe being correct. He may end up using it on himself. A last fuck you to cancer, and him being in control. But, if that is his plan, it will most definitely back fire on him. Whether he has to use it to stop someone else, or something else happens to him, his last moments, his death, will be brutal, and out of his control. The show simply will not let him win in the end, no matter how depressing what he considers a 'win' would have been.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:12 am 
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Consider this:

In this finale, no one is safe.

Not a single character.

None of them.

Maybe Saul. That's about it. Every other major character except Holly (the baby) is in genuine danger of being killed. Genuine, honest to god, it could really happen danger, from Walt right on down the line.

That's amazing. What show (other than Game of Thrones, which is based on books) has had the balls to really put EVERYONE in jeopardy and have it not be a tease? After all, you know your heroes pull through in the end; the fun is in watching how they get out of the jam.

Not here.

They're all in danger. Anyone could die.

Maybe no one will.

And maybe everyone will. I mean, the whole cast won't be wiped out, it's just that anyone could be killed and it would be a perfectly valid place for this narrative to go.

It's crazy.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:54 am 
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Crazy awesome.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:00 am 
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Indeed.

And now, at this point, the only people who are or were in regular contact with Walt that haven't had their lives ruined are...

Let's see.

The Gray Matter folk? Yeah, shit is going to happen to them too. Stock prices decrease, BITCH.

Is there a list of all the people who've had their lives fucked by Walt, either directly or indirectly?

So far, all of his family's lives have been screwed.

Saul Goodman is in witness protection.

Jesse? Oh god, poor Jesse :( - and by proxy, anyone Jesse has cared about, save for Skinny Pete and Badger. OH GOD, don't hurt Skinny Pete and Badger!

That one janitor at Walt's school.

Jane and her dad, and by proxy, everyone effected by that airplane crash.

Gus.

Mike.

Gale.

Things won't end well for Lydia. They can't end well for Lydia. Or Todd.

It's not just people that cross Walt, it's everyone. Walt is a cancer. Cancer spreads. New Mexico has cancer. Now New Hampshire has cancer.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:18 am 
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The fact that zombie eyes and his uncle killed Jesse's girlfriend pretty much sealed their fate, they are the targets in Walt's last hoorah. But the woman, I have a feeling that she will play a part in it, and maybe even with Skyler, but I also see the writers winking at her becoming too controlled by her own ego and falling down the same path Walt just did.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:22 am 
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brian wrote:
and by proxy, anyone Jesse has cared about, save for Skinny Pete and Badger. OH GOD, don't hurt Skinny Pete and Badger!

Badger did jail time after being pushed out onto the street as dealers, at Walt's direction. He's got a record and is on probation in part due to Walt.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:24 am 
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Ericubus wrote:
The fact that zombie eyes and his uncle killed Jesse's girlfriend pretty much sealed their fate, they are the targets in Walt's last hoorah. But the woman, I have a feeling that she will play a part in it, and maybe even with Skyler, but I also see the writers winking at her becoming too controlled by her own ego and falling down the same path Walt just did.

Todd has been an intriguing character since he was introduced -- he's just kind of empty inside, a seemingly nice, affable young man who also kills children and reacts as if he just tied his shoes -- but last night was when you really saw how awful he is. That little smirk when watching Jesse's video about the little boy being killed. The coldness when threatening Skylar. And then Andrea's murder.

He is a true psychopath. No conscience at all.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:29 am 
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brian wrote:
Is there a list of all the people who've had their lives fucked by Walt, either directly or indirectly?

So far, all of his family's lives have been screwed.

Saul Goodman is in witness protection.

Jesse? Oh god, poor Jesse :( - and by proxy, anyone Jesse has cared about, save for Skinny Pete and Badger. OH GOD, don't hurt Skinny Pete and Badger!

That one janitor at Walt's school.

Jane and her dad, and by proxy, everyone effected by that airplane crash.

Gus.

Mike.

Gale.

Hank and Marie.

The owner of the car wash.

The little kid in the desert.

All of the many people the Cartel twins killed while on their way north to find and kill Heisenberg. There was at least one truck full of immigrants, some Indian dude at his home, an old handicapped lady (they stole her van), and others. At least a dozen bodies left in their wake, all attributable to Walt.

Ted.

Gus's right hand made, the kid who got his throat slit.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:53 am 
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10 guys
2 minutes

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:03 pm 
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Shoe wrote:
brian wrote:
and by proxy, anyone Jesse has cared about, save for Skinny Pete and Badger. OH GOD, don't hurt Skinny Pete and Badger!

Badger did jail time after being pushed out onto the street as dealers, at Walt's direction. He's got a record and is on probation in part due to Walt.


I don't think that ruined his life. Hard to imagine Badger not getting into trouble.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:35 pm 
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Brian wrote:
It's not just people that cross Walt, it's everyone. Walt is a cancer. Cancer spreads. New Mexico has cancer. Now New Hampshire has cancer.


This is a great way of looking at this.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:54 pm 
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Red on October 20, 2011 wrote:
I see a wild card on who could take him down. Now I'm being ridiculous here when I say it, but Walter Jr. I see Walt betraying Skyler and somehow Jr. has to kill Walt to protect his mother.

I just reread most of this thread and kind of hope I was right about this two years ago. It already kind of happened that Walt is on his own because Walter Jr. stuck up for his mother. And again last night he pretty much told Walt to fuck off.

I know this is unlikely as I think Jesse has to be involved in Walt's ultimate demise, but it'd be fun if the doofy kid killed him.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:09 pm 
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Between Marie telling him to kill himself, and Walt Jr wanting him to just die and go away, maybe Walt will take their advice.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:44 pm 
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Team Walt, everyone dies except for him. Lets see it happen.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:44 pm 
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Saul Goodman- A POS lawyer who has so many connections to crooked fucked up people, a bad person. (before Walt)

Jesse- a drug dealing meth addict (before Walt) who got Jane back on meth and caused her to OD and die, a bad person

That one janitor at Walt's school. (arrested because of his previous run ins with the law), seems to be a pretty good person though.

Jane and her dad, and by proxy, everyone effected by that airplane crash. - Jane dying of an OD was her own doing thus her fault. Her dad is to blame for going back to work too early and causing a massive plane crash. If you blame somebody, blame Jesse.

Gus. - A meth dealer, a killer, a bad person (before Walt)

Mike. - A killer who runs errands for Gus, a bad person (before Walt).

Gale. - A person who cooks meth for Gus, seemed like a nice person but we don't know much about him.

Hank and Marie. - Walt's doing but had Hank and Marie handled the situation a little differently, he and Hanks partner would probably still be alive.

The owner of the car wash. - an asshole.

The little kid in the desert. - One of the saddest deaths because he was one of the few innocent people on the show.

All of the many people the Cartel twins killed while on their way north to find and kill Heisenberg. There was at least one truck full of immigrants, some Indian dude at his home, an old handicapped lady (they stole her van), and others. At least a dozen bodies left in their wake, all attributable to Walt. - Don't see how you can put those deaths on Walt, two crazy twins going on a killing spree because of the death of a Tuco (a meth dealing, killing, crazy person).

Ted. - a tool, slept with Walt's wife.

Gus's right hand made, the kid who got his throat slit. - Seemed like a pretty bad person.



I really don't feel sorry for anybody on this show and what happened to them. The exception being the kid in the desert and the chick who Todd killed last night. Oh yea, Brock being poisoned, all Walt's doing. Most of these people are truly terrible people who would have eventually gotten what was coming to them.

Still, might as well throw in Declan and all his men who were murdered a few episodes ago. And poor Combo getting killed because he was selling drugs for Walt.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:43 am 
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Al Pacino wrote:
Jesse- a drug dealing meth addict (before Walt) who got Jane back on meth and caused her to OD and die, a bad person

Jesse was your typical young shithead before he got involved with Walt. Not a model citizen by any means, but far from a hardened criminal who was going to leave corpses in his wake. He had a rough time with parents who gave up on him; he was mostly like any other 20something dope, except he slung a small amount of meth on the side. Not a good guy, but hardly evil.

And unlike many of the people around him, he has a conscience. He actually cares about hurting people. He had a line he would not crossed unless forced, and unlike Walt that line wasn't based on selfishness and self-interest.
Quote:
Jane and her dad, and by proxy, everyone effected by that airplane crash. - Jane dying of an OD was her own doing thus her fault. Her dad is to blame for going back to work too early and causing a massive plane crash. If you blame somebody, blame Jesse.

"By proxy" means indirectly or through another, which would be accurate here. Jesse had cleaned himself up, but Walt forcing him to go commit murder at the house where the junkies lived -- Jesse didn't end up doing it, but had a horribly traumatizing experience instead, one that scarred him for the entire series -- sent him over the edge and back into drugs. Walt was clearly a factor there. He put Jesse in the situation that sent him on a downward spiral.

Jesse getting back into drug then exposed Jane to it. She resisted at first, but caved. Then Walt's ego tripping decision to play games with Jesse's cash, something he had no right to do, prompted Jesse and Jane to have one last reckless night before skipping town. That's the night Jane died.

And Walt could have saved Jane, but he knowingly, consciously chose not to. He let her die.

While Jesse and Jane are responsible for their own actions, Walt certainly played a role in what happened to them. Without his involvement, without his actions, their fate is different. So yes, by proxy he is culpable in what happened with them. He's not solely at fault, but he played a big role in it. That's a vital theme of this show (as I comment on below).
Quote:
Saul Goodman- A POS lawyer who has so many connections to crooked fucked up people, a bad person. (before Walt)

Gus. - A meth dealer, a killer, a bad person (before Walt)

Mike. - A killer who runs errands for Gus, a bad person (before Walt).

Gus's right hand made, the kid who got his throat slit. - Seemed like a pretty bad person.

I don't think the fact that these guys (and others) were already bad people has any bearing on the way Walt impacted their lives. Walt was the X factor that steered them well off course and ruined all they had. Sure, they were unsavory characters and would have been involved in bad stuff one way or another -- you're not supposed to feel sorry for them -- but that's not really the point. The point is that whatever Walt touches goes to shit thanks to his ego-driven actions. These are all examples of people that Walt inadvertently toppled; people whose lives took a sudden left turn once he entered the picture.
Quote:
Hank and Marie. - Walt's doing but had Hank and Marie handled the situation a little differently, he and Hanks partner would probably still be alive.

The same can be said for every single event every single person experiences every single day of their life, both on TV and in the real world.

The fact remains that Walt's actions led directly to Hank's death and Marie being left a widow.

Honestly, how do you blame Hank for what happened? Walt could have turned himself in. He was caught. Hank knew who he was. Instead, Walt chose to go to war and to try and outmaneuver Hank. The end result for Hank could only be bad, but Walt did it anyway.

And really, Hank won. He outmaneuvered Walt in the end, but the accidental involvement of a gang of thugs pulled the rug out from under him. There is no fault with Hank here.
Quote:
The owner of the car wash. - an asshole.

So? He was an asshole, but he also appeared to be an honest man who had a business to run. Being an asshole doesn't mean you deserve to have your livelihood taken from you through dishonesty. This is another person who had their life upended due to Walt.
Quote:
Don't see how you can put those deaths on Walt, two crazy twins going on a killing spree because of the death of a Tuco (a meth dealing, killing, crazy person).

They were specifically on an obsessed mission to kill Walt, and were doing so to avenge Tuco, who would still be alive had he not gotten involved with Walt. If they're not out to take down Heisenberg, all those innocents in their way never get killed. Of course you can put those deaths on Walt. The fact that they didn't die by his hand doesn't matter; they died because of him.

The whole point here is the law of unintended consequences; the idea that the choices you make have ripples far beyond your control, and seemingly "small" bad actions can have a much larger impact than you realize. It's one of the major themes of the entire show! Walt thinks the ends justify the means, but as we see repeatedly, what Walt does always, always, always affects far more people than he thinks they will.

Walt doesn't intend for all those innocents to die, but the things he did prompted those twins to seek revenge. Innocents died because of it. Those are the unintended consequences of his actions, and it's a key example of the insidious cancer that is Walter White.
Quote:
Ted. - a tool, slept with Walt's wife.

It doesn't mean he deserved to be paralyzed for it, and he certainly wasn't alone in what he did. Skylar entered into the affair willingly, and she did so as a reaction to Walt's continued lies and deception, and then as a reaction to the revelation that he had been dealing drugs. If Walt isn't a chronic liar, Skylar never turns to Ted for comfort. If Walt isn't cooking meth, Skylar never takes it a step further and enters into an extended affair -- which, you might recall, was in large part a ploy by Skylar to force Walt out of the house to get him away from the children.

Ted may have slept with Skylar, but Walt himself is culpable in helping make that happen.
Quote:
I really don't feel sorry for anybody on this show and what happened to them.

Feeling sorry for them isn't the point. The point is that they had their lives fucked by Walt, either directly or indirectly. The point is that evil deeds are magnified, and doing bad things for a good end just doesn't work because you're inevitably going to pull everyone around you under, too. That some of these people were already bad doesn't really matter. What matters is that by being pulled into Walt's orbit, they had their lives ruined. This is something central to the entire show.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:50 am 
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Shoe wrote:
Al Pacino wrote:
Jesse- a drug dealing meth addict (before Walt) who got Jane back on meth and caused her to OD and die, a bad person

Jesse was your typical young shithead before he got involved with Walt. Not a model citizen by any means, but far from a hardened criminal who was going to leave corpses in his wake. He had a rough time with parents who gave up on him; he was mostly like any other 20something dope, except he slung a small amount of meth on the side. Not a good guy, but hardly evil.

And unlike many of the people around him, he has a conscience. He actually cares about hurting people. He had a line he would not crossed unless forced, and unlike Walt that line wasn't based on selfishness and self-interest.
Quote:
Jane and her dad, and by proxy, everyone effected by that airplane crash. - Jane dying of an OD was her own doing thus her fault. Her dad is to blame for going back to work too early and causing a massive plane crash. If you blame somebody, blame Jesse.

"By proxy" means indirectly or through another, which would be accurate here. Jesse had cleaned himself up, but Walt forcing him to go commit murder at the house where the junkies lived -- Jesse didn't end up doing it, but had a horribly traumatizing experience instead, one that scarred him for the entire series -- sent him over the edge and back into drugs. Walt was clearly a factor there. He put Jesse in the situation that sent him on a downward spiral.

Jesse getting back into drug then exposed Jane to it. She resisted at first, but caved. Then Walt's ego tripping decision to play games with Jesse's cash, something he had no right to do, prompted Jesse and Jane to have one last reckless night before skipping town. That's the night Jane died.

And Walt could have saved Jane, but he knowingly, consciously chose not to. He let her die.

While Jesse and Jane are responsible for their own actions, Walt certainly played a role in what happened to them. Without his involvement, without his actions, their fate is different. So yes, by proxy he is culpable in what happened with them. He's not solely at fault, but he played a big role in it. That's a vital theme of this show (as I comment on below).
Quote:
Saul Goodman- A POS lawyer who has so many connections to crooked fucked up people, a bad person. (before Walt)

Gus. - A meth dealer, a killer, a bad person (before Walt)

Mike. - A killer who runs errands for Gus, a bad person (before Walt).

Gus's right hand made, the kid who got his throat slit. - Seemed like a pretty bad person.

I don't think the fact that these guys (and others) were already bad people has any bearing on the way Walt impacted their lives. Walt was the X factor that steered them well off course and ruined all they had. Sure, they were unsavory characters and would have been involved in bad stuff one way or another -- you're not supposed to feel sorry for them -- but that's not really the point. The point is that whatever Walt touches goes to shit thanks to his ego-driven actions. These are all examples of people that Walt inadvertently toppled; people whose lives took a sudden left turn once he entered the picture.
Quote:
Hank and Marie. - Walt's doing but had Hank and Marie handled the situation a little differently, he and Hanks partner would probably still be alive.

The same can be said for every single event every single person experiences every single day of their life, both on TV and in the real world.

The fact remains that Walt's actions led directly to Hank's death and Marie being left a widow.

Honestly, how do you blame Hank for what happened? Walt could have turned himself in. He was caught. Hank knew who he was. Instead, Walt chose to go to war and to try and outmaneuver Hank. The end result for Hank could only be bad, but Walt did it anyway.

And really, Hank won. He outmaneuvered Walt in the end, but the accidental involvement of a gang of thugs pulled the rug out from under him. There is no fault with Hank here.
Quote:
The owner of the car wash. - an asshole.

So? He was an asshole, but he also appeared to be an honest man who had a business to run. Being an asshole doesn't mean you deserve to have your livelihood taken from you through dishonesty. This is another person who had their life upended due to Walt.
Quote:
Don't see how you can put those deaths on Walt, two crazy twins going on a killing spree because of the death of a Tuco (a meth dealing, killing, crazy person).

They were specifically on an obsessed mission to kill Walt, and were doing so to avenge Tuco, who would still be alive had he not gotten involved with Walt. If they're not out to take down Heisenberg, all those innocents in their way never get killed. Of course you can put those deaths on Walt. The fact that they didn't die by his hand doesn't matter; they died because of him.

The whole point here is the law of unintended consequences; the idea that the choices you make have ripples far beyond your control, and seemingly "small" bad actions can have a much larger impact than you realize. It's one of the major themes of the entire show! Walt thinks the ends justify the means, but as we see repeatedly, what Walt does always, always, always affects far more people than he thinks they will.

Walt doesn't intend for all those innocents to die, but the things he did prompted those twins to seek revenge. Innocents died because of it. Those are the unintended consequences of his actions, and it's a key example of the insidious cancer that is Walter White.
Quote:
Ted. - a tool, slept with Walt's wife.

It doesn't mean he deserved to be paralyzed for it, and he certainly wasn't alone in what he did. Skylar entered into the affair willingly, and she did so as a reaction to Walt's continued lies and deception, and then as a reaction to the revelation that he had been dealing drugs. If Walt isn't a chronic liar, Skylar never turns to Ted for comfort. If Walt isn't cooking meth, Skylar never takes it a step further and enters into an extended affair -- which, you might recall, was in large part a ploy by Skylar to force Walt out of the house to get him away from the children.

Ted may have slept with Skylar, but Walt himself is culpable in helping make that happen.
Quote:
I really don't feel sorry for anybody on this show and what happened to them.

Feeling sorry for them isn't the point. The point is that they had their lives fucked by Walt, either directly or indirectly. The point is that evil deeds are magnified, and doing bad things for a good end just doesn't work because you're inevitably going to pull everyone around you under, too. That some of these people were already bad doesn't really matter. What matters is that by being pulled into Walt's orbit, they had their lives ruined. This is something central to the entire show.


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